- VN#56 Opinion Poll -
"HARDWARE EVOLUTIONS"
Edited by Jonatan "Macx" FG.
In the last issue the readers were made acquaintance to the topic of "Oldskool Multiplatforming" and asked for comments to the matter of geezers from different soul enriched computers intermingling in a higher degree than before. This time we shift focus from that big and ever-changing world out there to our own world, the Commodore 64 with a blue screen and solid sound system. This Opinion Poll begs the question of how much new hardware the old machine can take before having its foundation shaken.
During the past years we have seen an onslaught of new hardware for the old breadbox. Things we just imagined back then are now of common use for almost every scener. The editor of this chapter has welcomed these new add-ons and has gladly stimulated the market for the c64. However, every so often in an odd board-post or on an online fora a shout has been heard. Are we not rushing things now, and is not the scene as we know it supposed to be against changes of our eternal and uniform system?
It was the time for an Opinion Poll on the subject. Questions were composed and sent out with the ascii-votesheet, and enough readers commented in order to make the chapter an interesting read. In the charts presented in a different chapter there is a topic of TOP RECENT HARDWARE GADGETS, in which the voters have graded the new hardware for our Commodore. It seems like quite a few of us already have become update dependent.
A) The Chameleon cartridge was recently released for the c64 market and it boasts an impressive number of features. It is currently sold as a beta version, but the actual hardware is all done. What do you reckon?
B) The 1541 Ultimate is now out in a second version and just like with the first edition, coders can take advantage of characteristics in it and achieve demo effects impossible on a stock c64 and 1541. Geek or bad?
C) The DC2N replaces the classic Datassette and is only one amongst several new gadgets of late that lets the c64 play with cassette (-images) again. A tape revival for your old breadbox, is this pushing it too far?
D) The ZoomFloppy claims it brings disk archival into the 21st century. How do you transfer stuff from the internet/more modern computer to your real hardware? Do you ever go on-line with your c64 using 64NIC+, RRnet, etc.?
E) Some claim the Amiga scene died because of a constant demand for hardware updates. Is the recent explosion of new hardware the beginning of the demise for the c64 scene? Do you have further comments on the matter?
The comments are presented in an order where the most important sceners are randomly mixed with the less important sceners. Enjoy.
Cruzer / Camelot
A) Haven't heard of it, but sounds interesting.
B) Geek. As far as I know it just enables 16 MB REU, which isn't that non-standard.
D) I just have an old MMC Replay, since my 1541u hasn't arrived yet.
E) I think the Amiga "died" because people expected hardware upgrades, but CBM went under and none came. The Amiga was regarded as the best homecomputer in its heyday, and when this wasn't the case anymore, the Amiga users lost their bragging rights and had to move on to PC to keep having "computers which can beat your computers."
The C64 has a complete other history. Since the demoscene on Amiga and C64 started at about the same time, the C64 always has been the underdog. So we don't have anything to live up to, and we can also get away with a lot more because it's oldskool and 8-bit.
So we don't really need hardware upgrades. On the other hand, equipment that makes life easier for demo developers and consumers is a good idea.
CMP / Triad
A) Somehow I'm not pleased with companies that sell quite expensive products and label them BETA. There are many reasons for why this is disturbing to me.
As for the specific example of Chameleon it is stated that the hardware is 100% done. Which implies it is not beta. But since Individual Computers say it is beta I will not become surprised if within a year after I bought the device some "hardware fix" will be necessary to run the latest firmware or to allow demo XYZ by Booze Design to run without bugs.
The firmware for the product is another thing, it might be as much beta as it like. I EXPECT the firmware to change, to be easily upgradeable and not likely to brick the hardware. If the hardware gets bricked I expect it to be EASY to unbrick it with a simple and affordable hardware tool. Ok if you lose all things you stored on the device. But the device should NOT become unusable.
Documentation, schematics and other necessary things for the hardware should be available. Why? Well, since it is sold as BETA you are likely to need the docs to be able to use the product and do any fixes. The hardware become more valuable/fun to me if I get full access and can program new firmware for it with ease.
In the old days, quality was put into products, never saw any beta Volvo 240 on the road. Nowdays it become more and more common with betas on the shelf and the product you buy are infact quite crappy and cheap in the making, indeed. I guess the beta label is just a way for the companies to hide their sorry arses when stuff doesn't work out well for the consumer (and to use the customer as unpaid test pilots.)
I'm looking forward to get a Chameleon. My hope is that it will function well in standalone mode and not just be a expensive VGA-adapter. Although I wonder how to attach a Retro Replay to it... Maybe I should wait a couple of years to get Chameleon II with extra features and no beta label?
B) Totally good. This is evolution, taking the hardware one SMALL step forward. Small enough to not confuse the user and still keeping things easy and fun like the C64 hardware always have done. For the coders this gives extra dimensions to explore and play around with.
This type of evolution have happened many times for the C64 hardware and already in the beginning of the 1980's. RAM expansions, alternative ROMs, reset buttons, faster disk access with parallel cables, bigger/faster diskdrives, superCPU, HD interfaces, SD card interfaces etc.
The C64 comes with both expansion port and user port. It is SUPPOSED to be expanded and used in ways not originally intended. It was very visionary of the people designing the C64 to put the possibility for these features in.
One of the backdraws is that the hardware extensions usually are produced in small series, so not everybody have had the possibility to buy them (at the time they realise they need it). I missed out on the MMC replay, which seem to be a nice device. People missed out on the C-one, eventhough they badly wanted one. Production on demand would be sweet. Also getting all the data for production of ancient equipment would be nice. How about a new SID chip? Somewhere someone evil sit on the production formula for it and wont let anyone else see it. I know. ;)
C) I'm positive to this and find it totally cool. To have a storage media that is easy to grasp and slow enough so you can grab a coffe and chat with your friends while waiting for the next game is quality of life and a step away from the ever faster going lifestyle that yet have to prove its worth. In fact I find it a little strange that the cassette port have not been used as mean of simple I/O more extensively, not only for Datasette. Maybe it is the kernel routines for handling the casette port that is the weak point.
D) I used to use X1541, but later got a RR-net which speed up things AND allow me to do the transfers from the modern Linux machine I use for everyday work. Otherwise RR-net is mostly used for connecting to BBSes.
ZoomFloppy seem to be a clever solution. The only drawback is that you need to plug/unplug so many cartridges all the time. I'm looking for "One ring to rule them all".
E) I think the new hardware is what KEEPS the C64 going strong nowadays. Connecting the C64 or C64-like machine (e.g DTV/Chameleon etc.) to modern peripherals like VGA-monitors, keyboards, storage media etc. is totally necessary. Otherwise we can all go to emulator hell. Emu is cheaper (free!), simpler (just press Alt-F4 when the boss show up), you get all the extensions, all the possible computers with full RAM extension and you just select which ROM version, which SID version etc and go warp speed when doing precalc. But Emu doesnt feel the same way as doing VIC tricks or PETSCII on a real C64. Especially pressing the reset button is very important thing for me.
El Topo
A) Sounds nifty but not something I would dish out cash for or think I need at the moment.
B) It's cool, just as long as all groups don't switch to that way of doing demos. It would be Amiga AGA-days all over again.
C) Yes that is pushing it too far. It's not 1986 anymore and there is only a handfull of tape games worth playing more than 5 seconds. Yes you could probably load one file demos off of tape but I'd rather see a punch card system developed for the C64, much more retro ;-)
D) I use a 1541-ultimate MK I and put/pull shit on/from the SD-card right from/to the PC. I lack means of putting my C64 online, could be cool though since I call Antidote BBS regularly using CGTerm.
E) I hope not, and I don't think the risk is that big. These gadgets are made in such small volumes and cost too much for "everyone" to get them. A gadget must be relly great for people wanting to wait for it six months in order for the next batch to be completed.
Almighty God / Onslaught / Level 64 / API
B) This is probably the best piece of hardware around for the C64. It does all that
you need regarding storage, and with some extras, but still keeping the heart of a C64. I like the C64 as it is, do not want it faster or with more resolution, etc. The Ultimate 1541 does a service to keep disks in a modern way with some extras, but keeping the essence of a C64. The 64 scene is so good/alive because we still use the same hardware, and no accelerators or other add-ons. I think that is the way to go for the hardware evolution.
hedning / Genesis Project
A) I think the Chameleon is nice (I don't own one, though), but I also think it's kind of a rapist behaviour to override the whole computer, and just use what you want of the original C64 - the SID and the keyboard. Isn't that what's left of the C64 when you plug in the Chameleon?
B) Geek.
C) Tape revival! More preservation!
D) I use 1541 Ultimate and a 1541-II. Soon I will use ZoomFloppy with parallel cable, though. I never use the c64 online.
E) The difference is that the Amiga hardware updates were a thing that went on from the birth of the Amiga until now. The C64 has been the same all the time, and the hardware updates of today is more like walkers for old people. And I like that.
Skate / Plush
A) I think it's a great hardware, deserves its price and the best c64 expansion ever. But i didn't get one yet, so it won't be wise to make a critic before using it for some time.
B) My opinion is close to Geek but there are other points which I've written below.
First of all, I'm using 1541 Ultimate-II for a few months. My previous working platform was included MMC64 + Retro Replay and I still use MMC64 for some of its special features but 1541 Ultimate-II is really amazing.
About 1541U's additional hardware features, I don't believe it brought anything new other than "more memory space". I'm talking about making some effects possible which weren't possible before. I don't know other unique features of the hardware if there are some but what I do know is REU is nothing new in c64 world, right? Maybe Chameleon will do this with its turbo feature but that's also nothing new. We all remember SuperCPU. Btw, I wonder how many c64 fans have SuperCPU and more importantly, how
many of them coded something for it? That will show how 1541U or Chameleon have a potential to change things in c64 scene.
C) After Atari era, I had bought my first Commodore 64 in 1987 with a datassette. But 2 years later I bought a disk drive (1541) and never ever used a datassette again in 22 years. So, I'm not really interested in such hardware. Codewise, only original thing I know is playing music tapes with digitized sounds using a datassette but Atari had this feature without needing to write a single line of code. So, it's also not very interesting to me either. Of course that doesn't mean other people won't like or need this hardware.
D) If you don't have something like MMC64, RR.Net, 1541U, Chameleon etc., ZoomFloppy looks like a very cheap solution. I use SD cards (with MMC64 and 1541U) and USB sticks (with 1541U) for file transfer. I have an RR.Net but I don't use it for file transfer and I don't go online with it. Actually I don't use my RR.Net at all. But I've some future plans for it. Btw, I use my A1200 for the internet. ;)
E) Commodore has a 28-29 years of history and what I do know is, Commodore sceners don't like hardware expansions! That's a fact. We use new hardwares because our drives and 5.25" disks are dying. Also cross-development is a big reason for the increment of additional hardware usage. In other scenes like Atari and Amiga, hardware expansions are always had acceptance and widely used. For that reason, I've no such worry.
radiantx / Panda Design
A) Haven't had a chance to try it out, but it looks like it's an amalgamation of Jens' previous carts and Gideon's 1541U. The VGA output thingie could possibly be killer, but I'm not convinced that it can upscale the 50.125 Hz C64 output to 60 Hz without artifacts.
B) Geek in a bad sense, I guess. Coding demos for custom hardware is cool - just look at Lft's demos - but coding demos for custom C64 expansions really hits the wrong vibe with me, and makes me think of some other weaker scenes, as well as grey-haired men running WiNGS and GeOS on their SuperCPUs.
C) Couldn't care less, honestly. I grew up with tapes and developed a special hatred for them; not going to go back to using them anytime soon, unless someone can convince me there's a real reason.
D) I use my 1541U for all transferring activities nowadays. I used to call Antidote using my RRnet in 2006, but haven't really done it since.
E) Is the Amiga scene dead? Could've fooled me.
ZZAP69 / Onslaught
A) The Chameleon cartridge doesn't appeal to me that much. What useful features does it have that the 1541U doesn't have? Isn't it more or less a hardware emulation of the C64 using the C64 as a keyboard slave?
B) 1541U2 still suffers of "children's diseases". Lots of software bugs are fouling the legacy. Unless you want to make animated demos of course, then you have the extended REU functions. The MMC64 moved your transfers to the true hardware. I haven't had any big use of RR-net, but I think it's a splendid boot for the C64 march into the age of modern computing.
daison / Avatar
A) Might be cool, but I think the 1541U-II has all the features I currently need.
B) I'm incredibly happy with it, for all it's features. But I don't like it to be used as target hardware... It emulates the 1541 just perfect these days ;)
C) I'm not exactly jumping with excitement about it...
D) Nope.
E) I'm always scared by stuff like IDE64, SuperCPU's, REU's etc because the coolest thing about the c64 is that it virtually stayed the same over all these years. I only own a 1541U-II as additional hardware. And it's nice to have a REU and BluReu was fun. But I can only hope we will continue doing stuff mostly for c64/1541 and all else is considered wild.
Lemming / Finnish Gold
A) "We heard you like C64 so now you can put a C64 in your C64". I'm not thrilled.
B) I dig.
C) Nope, it's good to have handy tape tools as well. Lots of unarchived tapes and tape originals lying around.
D) I use IDE64 to transfer my C64 warez from my PC using RRNet.
E) No, new hardware is always welcome. Amiga died because Commodore's business directors were morons.
irwin / Agenda
I am a total freak - I hate ANY additional hardware even 2SID. Stock C64 plus 1541 and
that is it.
Jazzcat / Onslaught
A) Nice device, anything that will assist people in this scene without replacing the standard for producing (e.g. increasing processing time etc. I want demos to run on my old C64 regardless of what device is plugged in) is a bonus in my book. Only if I could afford ALL of these devices, take for example that new CommodoreUSA gig... man, I wouldn't mind one, really... even though it is just a gimmick, but what a price! Maybe PAL/Offence should have got me one also! :D
B) Both geek and bad. Geek as it increases interest levels around our platform, bad because coders are not so common and their efforts into a minority component are wasted somewhat. I am all for stock programming but I also appreciate these new devices and what they can do. The new version of the 1541 Ultimate should have also kept the Ethernet option, I can see a cost reduction of course, thankfully I own Version 1 and it works a dream with WarpCopy (have converted over 4000 disks now).
C) People who know me well know also that I really appreciate preservation on the C64, if my friends were close I would put them in a pickle jar full of weird liquid to make them last longer (be afraid). In saying that, this device is quite important for dumping images, not only from the C64 but also from the VIC20, Commodore 16, Commodore Plus4 and even the good old Commodore Pet. Of course it also replaces the normal C2N too. Some rare originals can now be dumped. Preserve and share people!
D) I am using two methods for conversion mainly. 1541U+ETH using Codenet via WarpCopy. This allows transfers at around 22 seconds per side. The other method is via a tool Stryyker/Tide wrote for the CMD FD2000 drive, I haven't used it for a long time because the method is slow. I do go online to the Antidote BBS using the telnet function in Codenet (via 1541U), amazing that I am on a BBS again, on a real C64 and it is a legitimate connection (no phreaking involved!).
E) Any hardware for our machine that provokes interest and delight is worthwhile. When we take adventures from producing on the stock machine to some exotic hardware, which can be dangerous. WiLD compo entries such as BluREU from Crest are fantastic and help spark interest on the machine and demonstrate that creative minds can play in any arena, however the stock machine and its use as a demo platform must be maintained at all costs.
The Shadow / Avatar
E) The Amiga scene was doomed from the beginning because many of the people in the Amiga scene moved from the C=64 scene. A bunch of C=64 sceners attempting to fit into an Amiga scene that they really did not enjoy as much. The burst of new hardware was simply a coincindental set of events.